(ota | book) on forgiveness,

[faithlikeaseed]

FORM: BOOK MAGIC BOOK, anon ur heart out
SENDER: Myrobalan Shivana
RECIPIENT: Whoever's reading it
WHAT: 3am philosophy hour right in the middle of the day because someone's sleep schedule is flipped back for front
WHEN: right now
WHERE: wherever there's a book in range
NOTES: warnings 2 be updated as needed; threadjack at will

[This is sent without a name attached but Myr's handwriting is recognizable. And improving.]

what's forgiveness mean to you?

The idea, not just the word,

what can't you forgive? what shouldn't anyone forgive? can you ever owe it to someone to forgive them?

if you believe: what does it mean to have divine forgiveness? how do you repent?

if you don't: who's forgiveness for? the person forgiving or the person forgiven?

Comments

[swordproof]

Sometimes an issue may be too personal to be forgiven. No matter what we might wish otherwise. That is the nature of forgiveness - personal and painful.

I know there is someone I cannot forgive. Not even time has eased that wound.

- VI.

[faithlikeaseed]

[This rings true. They'd spoken about it before.]

I'm sorry. We've spoken before of what S [...he doesn't know how to spell "Sarenrae", neatly x's out the S,]

your god asks of you. I can only imagine the wound a very deep one for you are so kind and faithful.

[swordproof]

Sarenrae would ask for a chance at redemption. I know where it cannot be given, where my heart has too heavy a burden, so I must avoid it when possible. I cannot betray her.

Did this help?

[circleprodigy]

Forgiveness is a grace that can only be entirely voluntary to have any meaning and it is not always possible. Those truly repentant of the wrong they have done should accept that their victims may never forgive their actions.

[faithlikeaseed]

wise words.

is there value in bringing yourself to forgive someone before you think you're ready?

or before she's even repented?

[meds4sale]

[Well, well. What a complicated and subjective question to ask.]

Have you done something that may need forgiving? Or perhaps are you unable to let go of a wrong done to you?

Or are you just philosophizing?

[faithlikeaseed]

[Go hard or go home with wolf-hour questions. Even if it's midday.]

I should be lucky if I'd made it this far without either happening,

but in this case it's philosophy with a purpose. the Divine's election is stirring up so many old evils. how much forgiving might we need to do soon?

or not forgiving, depending on temperament.

[thorndergod]

I do not think there is true forgiveness.

Either something is small enough or not personal enough that you will not hold on to it and it does not need forgiveness, or it is too big or too personal and it must be addressed or held. And people do not forget, so it still has a bearing on future matters.

[faithlikeaseed]

I'd argue forgiveness and forgetting are two different things--forgetting cleans the slate between us, as you said, but forgiving's a willful act to set aside what was previously written. we make a conscious choice to act against what we know and extend trust once more.

it seems to me, though, you've described something very like forgiveness by any other name. simply because a little offense bounces off of you doesn't make the offender less culpable; you just chose to forgive before she ever acted. and I don't think anyone would say it's only forgiveness if it happens before someone's redressed a larger wrong.

still, an interesting perspective.

[malavhenan]

I believe you need forgiveness so that you can begin to heal.


Honestly, I don't know if there are things I wouldn't forgive. But, there are people who perhaps do not deserve to be forgiven.


If forgiveness is yours to give, then it should be for your own well being whether or not you choose to give it.

[faithlikeaseed]

who do you think wouldn't deserve forgiveness?

& I agree we need it to heal--but I wonder if it's always for our own well-being we need to forgive, or for the sake of those around us, too.

[filthydipper]

Depending where you stand different folk are all differently entitled to it. How far deep in the muck d'you want to go digging? Is it even worth it? To go dig that deep in yourself that it's your own guts in there too?

Not worth it sometimes. Maybe you'd sleep better, maybe you wouldn't, d'you fancy risking sleeping worse on a maybe?

Resentment and spite keep you warm and alive when you've got nothing else.

[faithlikeaseed]

[A thoughtful series of dots appears beneath this one before Myr writes back:]

I'll always prefer to dig more and not less, even if it loses me sleep--

better to know than not. but that's not the trade everyone else would make.

[More dots.]

can't argue the life-saving power of spite. sometimes that's all there is against your demons--not giving them what they want. but if it hollows you out--if it's all you run on--how do you get on with other people after?

[seaboard]

Forgiveness can always be given to a heart that wants it.

Doing so makes a heart kinder in turn.

[ That isn't true, is it, Gilia? There was no way to forgive Godfinn for what he did. There was no going back from that.

But, she wants it to be true. She would forgive him, she would always forgive him. She told him it over and over again as he sunk down into the black muck. Until he was just a pair of scared eyes over the top of the mess. ]

[faithlikeaseed]

now, that's something I hadn't thought of--

but it's surely true that some people don't want to be forgiven. why do you think a heart would reject it?

[hassaran]

[ an anonymous note in an unfamiliar hand]

Forgiveness can be for either the giver or the receiver but it seems rare that both want it for the same things.

Can you forgive a wrong that wasn't done to you? If someone has done something terrible to others, does it mean anything to forgive it? Or is it just a way to selfishly justify ignoring it?

[faithlikeaseed]

good questions. I don't believe you can forgive someone for harm that wasn't done you--but how ought we to act around such people, if we know they've hurt others? if what they've done is criminal we turn them over to the law and maybe justice is delivered--but should we continue to hold their crimes against them after that, if their victims haven't forgiven them?

or is what we collectively do when we agree justice has been served something other than forgiveness?

and what of cases where the law has no hold?

crystal

[sclavus]

[ answering this through crystal instead, because while he can write a reply, he'd rather not take eternity doing it. ]

Never forgive another expressing any kind of ownership of you. Not simply as a slave, but as a larger body making choices with your freedoms, your rights.

It's a crime that strips you of your personage, and all those being subjugated on this continent decided to stop forgiving it, they might have a way past it.

crystal back!! & private,

[faithlikeaseed]

[hmmmmMMM seems suspect--]

Isn't that any sort of authority, though? How would you get on without any whatsoever?

[youwonscience]

I think there's two different types of forgiveness, and both can matter. There's forgiveness that's about reconciliation - restoring the relationship, finding a way to move forward. Depending on what you're forgiving, that relationship may never be the same, but you're indicating that you want it to go on in some form.

I also think sometimes there's forgiveness that's more about letting go for yourself. You've still burned a bridge, and you don't plan to reconcile, but you have to set down the resentment and the active anger for your own ability to heal. No one else gets to make the call about when and if you're ready for type two. Maybe you never are, sometimes.

But I think a lot of people mix up the two kinds, and it's important not to do that.

[faithlikeaseed]

someone said to me once, of the second kind, that if you don't forgive at all you might yet grow around it, like a tree around an arrow.

You're right at that; confusing the two is, I think, a benefit to those who'd abuse the first type.

does what's unforgivable differ between them?

[rathercommon]

Of course you don't owe it to anyone to forgive them. Some people are arseholes.

[faithlikeaseed]

truly, they are,

But what if they're arseholes who also happen to be right? saying writing this for no one but myself--

if they got it right & I didn't, does that deserve acknowledging?

anonymously;

[wythersake]

Grind it finely enough, and you can swallow glass.

[faithlikeaseed]

& which is that a metaphor for: forgiving or not?